The Brand Builder's Playbook // Brand vs Performance Marketing: Why the Long Game Wins // With Andrea Brimmer (Ally)
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this episode of The Brand Builder's Playbook, hosts Jim Stengel, Ryan Barker, and Lindsay Wehking tackle the persistent tension between brand building and performance marketing with Andrea Brimmer, Chief Marketing and PR Officer at Ally. (00:10) The discussion centers on why this remains a top issue for CMOs despite compelling data showing the value of balanced approach. Andrea shares Ally's transformation from GMAC to a nationally recognized challenger brand in financial services, demonstrating how to create emotion in an emotionless category while driving measurable business results. (10:58)
- Main theme: How to successfully integrate brand building and performance marketing through organizational alignment, shared KPIs, and treating brand as a company-wide asset rather than just a marketing function
Speakers
Jim Stengel
Former Chief Marketing Officer at Procter & Gamble and renowned marketing strategist who now hosts CMO events and podcasts, focusing on brand building and marketing excellence.
Ryan Barker
Co-host of The Brand Builder's Playbook and marketing executive who has published research on the multiplier effect of combining brand and performance marketing, including work featured in Harvard Business Review.
Lindsay Wehking
Marketing strategist and guest co-host who brings insights on brand culture and community building, with expertise in how brands connect with consumer movements and aesthetics.
Andrea Brimmer
Chief Marketing and PR Officer at Ally, who has spent nearly two decades transforming the company from GMAC into one of America's most admired challenger brands. She has appeared on the Forbes world's most influential CMO list five times and earned a spot in the 2024 Forbes CMO Hall of Fame, leading Ally to be highlighted on Fast Company's brands that matter list for three consecutive years.
Key Takeaways
Reframe Brand vs Performance as Demand Generation and Demand Capture
Andrea emphasized that organizations harm themselves by creating a false dichotomy between brand and performance marketing. (28:17) Instead of viewing these as competing priorities, Ally thinks about "demand generation" (building long-term brand equity) and "demand capture" (converting immediate interest). This linguistic reframe puts both teams on the same side of the table, working toward complementary goals rather than fighting for resources. The key insight is that brand can drive performance just as much as performance tactics can build brand awareness when executed thoughtfully.
Create Organizational Alignment Through Shared Scorecards
One of Ally's most powerful strategies is implementing shared scorecards across the senior leadership team, where brand health KPIs appear not just on the CMO's scorecard but also on the CEO, CFO, and other business leaders' scorecards. (23:00) This eliminates the traditional dynamic where the CMO fights alone for brand investment while others focus solely on short-term metrics. When everyone's compensation is tied to both brand health and business outcomes, it forces collaborative problem-solving rather than departmental silos.
Prove the Business Case with Data and Testing
Andrea's team conducted a landmark study with 850,000 consumers, splitting them into groups that received either steady "demand generation" advertising or pure "demand capture" rate advertising. (17:18) The results proved that customers exposed to brand-building creative were not only more efficient to acquire but also grew their lifetime value at a significant rate. This type of rigorous testing provides the factual foundation needed to convince linear thinkers and secure investment in long-term brand building.
Make Brand Everyone's Responsibility, Not Just Marketing's
Ally's success comes from recognizing that brand experience extends far beyond marketing campaigns to every customer touchpoint. (27:09) As Andrea noted, exceptional marketing means nothing if customers don't feel the brand's soul when they call customer service, visit a storefront, or use the mobile app. The company reinforces this through initiatives like giving call center advocates $500,000 annually to spend unexpectedly helping customers, creating authentic brand moments that no advertising campaign could replicate.
Start Small with Test-and-Learn Approaches
For organizations struggling to balance brand and performance, Andrea recommends beginning with small tests rather than attempting wholesale organizational change. (28:28) Develop fact-based narratives that demonstrate the value of integrated approaches, create common language across teams, and gradually build proof points that justify larger investments. This methodical approach helps overcome resistance from stakeholders who view brand building as unmeasurable or risky.
Statistics & Facts
- According to Ryan's research, if a balanced brand cuts out brand building due to pressure, ROI drops on average by 40%. Conversely, if a performance-driven company becomes brand-led, the median ROI increase is plus 90%. (05:36)
- Ally's brand favorability among women's sports fans is 20-30 percentage points higher than average, with these fans being six times more likely to open an Ally account at 87% more efficient cost to acquire. (12:45)
- Ally's brand valuation increased 31% two years ago while the financial services category declined 3%, and increased another 4% last year while the category again declined 5%. (13:13)
