ReThinking: Talking people out of hate with Daryl Davis and former neo-Nazi Jeff Schoep
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this extraordinary conversation, Adam Grant explores the remarkable work of Daryl Davis, a Black jazz musician who has convinced over 200 white supremacists to leave the KKK since the 1980s, and Jeff Schoep, a former neo-Nazi leader who spent 27 years building the largest neo-Nazi organization in America before abandoning the movement after meeting Daryl. (02:45) The episode delves into the psychology of changing deeply held beliefs, the power of curiosity over confrontation, and practical strategies for engaging with people who hold opposing views.
- Core focus on transforming hate through curiosity, respect, and patient dialogue rather than direct confrontation or violence
Speakers
Adam Grant
Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist and the host of the TED podcast "Rethinking." He's the author of multiple bestselling books including "Think Again" where he featured Daryl Davis's work. Grant specializes in the science of motivation, generosity, and challenging conventional wisdom in workplace and social dynamics.
Daryl Davis
Daryl Davis is a Black jazz musician and author of "The Clan Whisperer" who has spent over 30 years befriending members of the KKK and other hate groups. Growing up as a child of US Foreign Service diplomats, he was exposed to diverse cultures worldwide before encountering racism at age 10. Since the 1980s, over 200 white supremacists have renounced their affiliations after conversations with Davis, and he co-founded the Prohuman Foundation.
Jeff Schoep
Jeff Schoep is a former neo-Nazi leader who spent 27 years in white supremacist movements, including leading the National Socialist Movement, which became the largest neo-Nazi organization in America under his leadership. After meeting Daryl Davis in 2016, he began questioning his beliefs and left the movement following the 2017 Charlottesville rally. He now runs the nonprofit Beyond Barriers, helping people exit extremist groups of all kinds.
Key Takeaways
Replace Fury with Curiosity
Daryl Davis's fundamental approach centers on approaching hate with genuine curiosity rather than anger or confrontation. (03:03) Davis explains: "So rather than get furious, I got curious. I want to see how these people think." This mindset shift is crucial because when people feel attacked or judged, they become defensive and entrench further into their beliefs. Instead of demanding change, curiosity opens doors for genuine dialogue and self-reflection. The practical application involves asking open-ended questions like "How can you hate me when you don't even know me?" rather than making accusations or moral judgments.
Show, Don't Tell People They're Wrong
Both Davis and Schoep emphasize that effective change happens when people discover their own contradictions rather than being directly told they're wrong. (24:18) Schoep notes: "Not to tell the person they're wrong, but to show them how they're wrong." Davis demonstrated this beautifully when confronting a KKK leader's claim about a "violence gene" in Black people by using the same flawed logic about white serial killers. (33:59) This approach bypasses psychological reactance and allows people to maintain their dignity while recognizing flaws in their reasoning. The key is using analogical reasoning and their own logic against problematic beliefs.
Create Cognitive Dissonance Through Respectful Interaction
The most powerful tool for change is creating situations where people's beliefs conflict with their direct experience. When Jeff Schoep met Daryl Davis, the pleasant, respectful conversation immediately challenged his stereotypes about Black people. (20:51) Schoep recalls: "How can it be good and noble, and honorable and just, if it's doing that to a child?" This dissonance between ideology and human connection forces people to question their beliefs. The strategy works because it's experiential rather than theoretical - people can dismiss arguments but struggle to dismiss positive personal interactions that contradict their worldview.
Apply Universal Human Values in Adversarial Situations
Davis identifies five core values every human wants: to be loved, respected, treated fairly and truthfully, to be heard, and to have the same opportunities for their families as others. (35:37) When approaching any adversarial situation - whether about race, politics, or other contentious topics - applying these values creates common ground. This means listening respectfully even when you disagree with the content, acknowledging their right to speak while expecting the same in return. The practical application involves treating opponents as humans deserving of basic respect while firmly opposing their harmful ideologies.
Find Your Line and Stay Engaged
Not everyone can or should directly engage with extremists, but everyone can contribute to positive change at their comfort level. (45:14) Davis advises: "Find the line where you most feel comfortable. All right? And participate." Some people work on the front lines through direct dialogue, others support from the sidelines through education or advocacy, and some contribute online through sharing information. The crucial element is remaining engaged rather than completely cutting off communication, as isolation often drives people further into extremism. Even maintaining basic family relationships while disagreeing politically keeps doors open for future reconciliation.
Statistics & Facts
- Over 200 KKK members and white supremacists have renounced their affiliations since the 1980s, all crediting Daryl Davis with helping them change their views. (02:42)
- Jeff Schoep spent 27 years total involved in white supremacist movements, building the National Socialist Movement into the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country during his leadership. (26:03)
- Daryl Davis began his quest to understand racism at age 10 in 1968 when he experienced his first racist attack during a Cub Scout parade, the same year Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. (09:09)
