ReThinking: Permission to play with Jacob Collier
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
Grammy-winning musician Jacob Collier joins Adam Grant for an interactive live recording at TED headquarters, demonstrating his signature audience choir technique that transforms ordinary people into collaborative musicians. The conversation explores how Jacob uses music as a universal language to break down barriers and create moments of collective joy, drawing from lessons he learned watching his conductor mother create "mass permissioning" with orchestras. (03:18) Jacob shares insights on the power of audience participation, his unconventional approach to music that defies genre boundaries, and his philosophy that everyone is inherently musical.
- Core themes: The democratization of music-making, the psychology of audience engagement, creative leadership, and using joy as an act of defiance in uncertain times
Speakers
Adam Grant
Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist at Wharton and the host of the TED podcast "Rethinking." He's the author of multiple bestselling books including "Think Again" and "Originals," and is recognized as one of the world's leading experts on motivation, generosity, and original thinking.
Jacob Collier
Jacob Collier is a Grammy-winning musician, educator, and innovator known for his genre-defying approach to music and his viral audience choir performances. He's the only artist to have been twice nominated for Album of the Year without ever charting, and has collaborated with artists ranging from Quincy Jones to Coldplay while building a global community through his interactive concerts.
Key Takeaways
Everyone Is Born Musical - Permission Matters More Than Skill
Jacob reveals that his core belief is "everyone in the world is a musician in a sense" and that people simply need permission to participate rather than formal training. (05:16) He learned this from watching his conductor mother create "mass permissioning" with orchestras, observing that the lessons were fundamentally human rather than musical. This challenges the conventional wisdom that musical participation requires extensive training, suggesting instead that our innate capacity for rhythm, melody, and harmony just needs to be awakened through encouragement and safe spaces to experiment.
Embrace "Wiggledom" Over Rigid Perfectionism
Jacob introduces his "wiggle theory" - the idea that people are born to wiggle but live in a "straight line world" that conditions us toward rigidity. (07:36) He distinguishes between being "supple" (bending with conditions) versus "brittle" (breaking under pressure), advocating for flexibility in both music and life. This philosophy extends beyond performance to how we handle unexpected situations, suggesting that our ability to adapt and flow with change is more valuable than maintaining perfect control.
Use Creative Tension and Dissonance Deliberately
Through his musical demonstration of consonant versus dissonant intervals, Jacob shows how controlled dissonance creates more meaningful harmony than constant pleasantness. (25:25) He explains that "if you control the dissonance, you have way more meaningful harmony than if you just play consonant stuff all the time." This principle applies broadly to leadership and relationships - avoiding all conflict or tension actually reduces depth and impact, while thoughtfully navigating creative tension leads to breakthrough moments.
Create Culture Through Shared Standards, Not Control
Jacob describes how audience members naturally police inappropriate behavior during his concerts, saying "we just don't do that here." (12:21) Rather than trying to control every interaction, he creates conditions where people take ownership of maintaining positive group dynamics. This demonstrates that strong culture emerges when people internalize shared values and feel empowered to uphold them, rather than relying on top-down enforcement.
Build Trust Through Strategic Vulnerability in Familiar Territory
Jacob's approach of doing "harmonically irresponsible" covers of well-known songs allowed him to build trust with audiences by walking "that line between the thing that people expect and don't expect." (46:25) By starting with familiar material and then subverting expectations in creative ways, he earned permission to take bigger risks. This strategy applies to any situation where you need to establish credibility - begin with what people know and trust, then gradually introduce your innovations.
Statistics & Facts
- Jacob Collier is the only artist to have been nominated twice for Album of the Year Grammy without ever charting on traditional music charts. (34:46) This statistic demonstrates how modern success metrics are changing and challenges the assumption that commercial chart performance equals artistic recognition or impact.
- Jacob's album featured musicians from every continent, including collaborations with artists from India, South America, Korea, Australia, Europe, and numerous American gospel musicians. (35:36) This global scope illustrates the truly international nature of his collaborative approach to music-making.
- In Latvia and Estonia, song and dance festivals feature 40,000 people on stage with 500,000 people in the audience, representing multi-generational participation in musical traditions. (09:11) These numbers highlight the massive scale at which collective musical participation can occur when cultural norms support it.
