ReThinking: Brené Brown on courageous leadership
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this engaging episode of Rethinking, organizational psychologist Adam Grant sits down with renowned researcher and storyteller Brené Brown to explore her latest book "Strong Ground" and delve into the foundations of courageous leadership. (03:05) The conversation spans from Brown's grounded theory research methodology to practical strategies for identifying core values, having difficult conversations, and building authentic connections in leadership roles. (02:38)
- Main Theme: The discussion centers on transforming vulnerability from a perceived weakness into a leadership superpower, emphasizing how courage, authentic connection, and values-based leadership drive exceptional performance in organizations.
Speakers
Brené Brown
Brené Brown is a researcher, storyteller, and six-time #1 New York Times bestselling author who has fundamentally changed how we think about vulnerability, shame, empathy, and leadership. She hosts the popular "Dare to Lead" podcast and has delivered some of the most watched TED Talks of all time, with her vulnerability research reaching millions worldwide and transforming organizational cultures across industries.
Adam Grant
Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist at Wharton School and the host of TED's Rethinking podcast. He's the author of multiple bestselling books including "Think Again" and "Give and Take," and is recognized as one of the world's leading experts on motivation, generosity, and organizational behavior.
Key Takeaways
Shift from Being a Knower to Being a Learner
Brown emphasizes that in today's rapidly changing world, the most valuable leaders are those who ask exquisite questions rather than pretend to have all the answers. (04:56) She notes that senior leaders globally are seeking candidates who demonstrate curiosity and problem-solving hunger over those who claim to know everything. This represents a fundamental shift from "courage is being a knower" to "courage is being a learner." The practical application involves developing comfort with uncertainty and positioning yourself as someone who actively seeks understanding rather than defensively protecting your existing knowledge.
Master the Art of Playing Back What You Hear
One of the most powerful communication tools discussed is the concept of "playing back" - accurately reflecting what someone has told you before responding. (11:11) Brown references FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss's work, explaining how two simple words - "that's right" - can create neurobiological connection that changes survival outcomes. In professional settings, this translates to saying "Can I play back what I think you're saying?" before offering solutions or pushback. This technique ensures clarity, builds trust, and demonstrates that you truly understand the other person's perspective before moving forward.
Lead with "What Does Success Look Like for You?"
Rather than immediately pitching your ideas or defending your position, Brown advocates starting difficult conversations by understanding what success means to the other person. (14:58) She provides a specific framework: ask your leader what winning looks like, play back their response accurately, then ask for permission to lead your team in a way that drives those results. This approach aligns your methods with their values and goals, making it much more likely they'll support your leadership style even if it differs from their own.
Identify Your Two Core Values Through What You Sacrifice For
Brown challenges the traditional approach to identifying values, arguing that values aren't just what you care about - they're what you're willing to sacrifice for. (16:58) Through extensive research with 160,000 people, she's found that effective leaders can quickly identify no more than two core values that serve as "home base and fire for everything else." Grant adds that these terminal values become clear when you ask yourself what you've given up and why, looking at patterns of sacrifice rather than just stated preferences. The key is then operationalizing these values into specific behaviors and identifying early warning signals when you're out of alignment.
Use "The Story I'm Making Up Is" to Navigate Difficult Conversations
Brown's most referenced technique involves acknowledging the narrative your brain creates when faced with incomplete information. (26:50) When something concerning happens, instead of assuming the worst or avoiding the conversation, she recommends approaching the person and saying "The story I'm making up is..." followed by your interpretation of events. This technique works because our brains are neurobiologically wired for narrative and will create stories to make sense of ambiguous situations - usually casting others as villains for our own psychological comfort. By naming this process explicitly, you create space for dialogue and often discover the reality is completely different from your assumption.
Statistics & Facts
- Brown and her team have tested the two-core-values framework with at least 160,000 people over six years, with universal success in helping people identify their fundamental values. (19:59)
- Brown has been sober for 28 years, providing context for her insights on enmeshment and healthy boundaries in relationships. (43:50)
- Brown graduated with her undergraduate degree at 29 after being kicked out of school three times, emphasizing that non-traditional paths can lead to profound expertise and empathy. (42:36)
