Can college survive Trump?
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this episode, Sean Illing explores the escalating attacks on higher education with Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University. Roth argues that the federal government is systematically undermining civil society by targeting universities' independence through funding threats and forced resignations like at UVA (12:00). The conversation spans three critical dimensions: the authoritarian strategy to control intermediate institutions that have legitimacy independent of government ideology (05:36), the real problems within universities including ideological conformity among faculty (24:00), and the fundamental question of what college should accomplish—discovering what you love, getting better at it, and learning to share it with the world (41:54). Roth offers both a fierce defense of academic freedom and honest criticism of higher education's exclusivity and prejudices, while addressing modern challenges from AI to political interference.
Speakers
Michael Roth
President of Wesleyan University, historian, professor, and author of several books about higher education including Beyond the University. One of higher ed's most vocal defenders against government overreach, with extensive experience teaching and leading academic institutions.
Sean Illing (Host)
Host of The Gray Area podcast. Former teacher with deep expertise in higher education issues and concerns about the future of universities in America.
Key Takeaways
Safeguard Civil Society's Independence
Universities, newspapers, law firms, and churches serve as "intermediary institutions" with legitimacy independent of government ideology—authoritarian leaders systematically attack these sectors to eliminate opposition. (06:06) As university presidents and other institutional leaders, defend your organization's mission against political coordination efforts that would transform you into an extension of state power rather than an independent voice in civil society.
Define Civic Engagement Broadly, Not Parochially
When a guidance counselor admits it would be "professional malpractice" to let a student mention protecting the rights of the unborn as civic engagement, your institution has created ideological guardrails too narrow for democratic discourse. (31:23) Embrace civic purpose while ensuring it encompasses the full spectrum of legitimate political engagement—from progressive activism to conservative advocacy—so students learn to navigate disagreement rather than avoid it.
Build Intellectual Muscle Through Productive Discomfort
College exists to help students discover what they love, master those skills through rigorous practice, and learn to share their expertise with the world. (42:34) Create learning environments that challenge students' assumptions and push them beyond their comfort zones—this means exposing progressive students to conservative critiques and requiring everyone to defend their positions through substantive engagement rather than emotional appeals.
Teach Students to Think With AI, Not Instead of It
Rather than banning AI tools or pretending they don't exist, structure assignments that require students to engage in dialogue with AI and then demonstrate original thinking through oral discussion and collaborative analysis. (48:57) The goal isn't to eliminate AI but to ensure students experience the irreplaceable joy of thinking for themselves in community with others—an embodied practice that, like athletics, cannot be fully outsourced to technology.
Fight for Educational Freedom as Personal Liberation
Authentic education provides students an experience of freedom that authoritarian leaders fundamentally oppose—it's why they target high-legitimacy institutions like Harvard while ignoring actual civil rights violations elsewhere. (57:05) Whether in elite universities or prison programs, education gives people resources to discover themselves and connect with others in transformative ways. Defend this mission not just as job security but as a crucial pathway to human flourishing that must remain accessible across all walks of life.
Statistics & Facts
No specific statistics were provided in this episode.
