Mike Gordon
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this engaging episode of Tetragrammaton, host Rick Rubin sits down with Mike Gordon, bassist and founding member of the legendary jam band Phish. Gordon shares intimate details about his transformative peak experiences, including a life-changing gig at Goddard College in 1985 that led him to dedicate his life to pursuing transcendent musical moments. (24:00) The conversation explores Phish's 41-year journey, from their humble beginnings in Vermont dorm lounges to selling out massive festivals for 80,000 fans, including their epic eight-hour New Year's show in 1999. (00:23) Gordon discusses the band's innovative approaches to improvisation, their "listening exercises" that helped them achieve musical telepathy, and his philosophy of acceptance that allows the muse to guide their performances. The episode also delves into Gordon's solo work, filmmaking ventures, and his collaboration with acoustic guitar virtuoso Leo Kottke, while examining the deeper spiritual and creative processes that fuel one of America's most devoted musical communities.
• Main themes: The pursuit of transcendent peak experiences in music, the evolution of improvisational techniques, and the balance between planning and surrender in creative expression
Speakers
Mike Gordon
Mike Gordon is the bassist and founding member of Phish, formed at the University of Vermont in 1983. Beyond his role in one of America's most successful jam bands, Gordon is a multi-faceted artist who has released multiple solo albums, directed films including "Outside Out" and "Rising Low," and collaborated extensively with acoustic guitar legend Leo Kottke on three albums. He has been instrumental in writing and co-writing several of Phish's key tracks while also exploring various instruments and creative ventures throughout his 41-year career with the band.
Key Takeaways
Transcendent Experiences Require Presence and Surrender
Gordon's breakthrough came during a 1985 performance at Goddard College when he learned to stop analyzing and simply be present with his bandmates. (24:00) This peak experience taught him that the most profound musical moments occur when ego dissolves and musicians become conduits for something greater. His practice of jumping to the beat while maintaining complete presence - not too early, not too late - became a physical anchor for accessing transcendent states. The key insight is that these experiences can't be forced through technique alone; they require complete surrender to the moment and trust in the collective musical intelligence of the group.
Listening Exercises Build Musical Telepathy
Phish developed specific "listening exercises" to combat the problem of musicians playing in their own worlds during improvisation. (31:58) These exercises involved sitting in a circle and copying simple two-bar phrases, which evolved into complementing rather than mimicking each other's playing. Gordon emphasizes that successful jamming requires "listening to the whole or everybody else and not to yourself." This practice transformed Phish from scattered individual players into a unified organism capable of making sudden collective shifts - like "a herd of buffalo going full speed ahead and then suddenly turning left together." (33:49)
The "No Analyze" Rule Preserves Creative Flow
In the late 1990s, Phish implemented a crucial rule: no analyzing performances between sets, only positive acknowledgment. (39:39) Gordon discovered that when band members criticized each other's playing during breaks, it created self-consciousness that diminished the quality of subsequent sets. The rule eliminated glares, judgment, and side comments, allowing musicians to trust their instincts without fear of criticism. This principle extends beyond music - when we remove the analytical mind's interference during creative processes, we can access more authentic and inspired expression.
Accepting Clichés Can Lead to Transcendence
One of Gordon's most counterintuitive insights is that accepting musical clichés, rather than fighting them, can open doors to transcendent experiences. (44:09) When playing what might sound like "something the Rolling Stones were doing in 1973," the temptation is to force innovation. However, Gordon learned that even within familiar patterns, subtle variations can make something feel completely fresh. Sometimes the most profound musical experiences come from playing a single note for thirty minutes with complete acceptance, finding the infinite within the simple.
Non-Varying Exercises Deepen Musical Perception
Gordon developed the "non-varying exercise" where each musician must maintain the same musical phrase for 5-10 minutes without changes. (59:10) Initially uncomfortable, this practice reveals layers of subtlety between the notes and rhythms that are invisible when constantly varying. By the third minute, musicians hear "worlds of varying already happening" in the spaces between sounds. This technique, inspired by Bob Weir's insight about rock and roll being about "swinging and being straight," teaches that limitation can actually expand creative perception and depth.
Statistics & Facts
- Phish performed their largest show for 80,000 people in Florida on New Year's Eve 1999, playing an eight-hour set straight through until sunrise to bring in the millennium. (00:23)
- The band has approximately 600 songs in their repertoire, though they typically draw from about 300 during performances, with fans tracking statistics of when songs were first played and last performed. (07:28)
- Gordon spent 5,000 hours working on his first feature film "Outside Out" without a script, later making a second film "Rising Low" featuring 25 top bass players including John Entwistle, Jack Bruce, Flea, and Bootsy Collins. (14:14)
