#1032 - Joshua Citarella - The Dark Subcultures of Online Politics
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
This episode dives deep into the world of online political subcultures with Joshua Citarella, an artist and cultural researcher who specializes in tracking how internet communities shape real-world politics. The conversation explores how young people are becoming radicalized through memes and online spaces, the transformation of political discourse in the post-2008 era, and how internet subcultures actively produce political beliefs and identity formation. (03:00)
• Main focus: Understanding how internet subcultures influence politics and why young people's political engagement is qualitatively different than previous generationsSpeakers
Joshua Citarella
Joshua Citarella is an artist, writer, and cultural researcher focused on internet subcultures and online politics. He hosts the Doom Scroll podcast and was previously known for his work in galleries and museums as a visual artist. His 2018 book "Politogram the Post Left" examined the memetic activity of teenagers and laid the foundation for understanding modern political radicalization online.
Chris Williamx
Chris Williamx hosts the Modern Wisdom podcast, one of the most visually polished podcasts in the space. He brings a thoughtful interviewing style that draws connections between disparate topics while maintaining intellectual curiosity about complex political and cultural phenomena.
Key Takeaways
Young People Face Unprecedented Political Uncertainty
Unlike previous generations who grew up with clear ideological frameworks, Gen Z has inherited a world without consensus on what the future should look like. (13:33) As Citarella explains, they don't have the 1989 liberal democracy consensus that "this is the final form" of government. Instead, they're given complete access to every political text and meme ever created while facing downward mobility and no clear answers. This creates a generation that's simultaneously hyperactive politically but often ineffective in traditional channels.
Memes Are More Than Entertainment - They're Political Infrastructure
Citarella's research reveals that memes function as "transmittable narratives" that help humans piece together worldviews. (38:44) What starts as teenagers "brute forcing combinations like monarcho syndicalism" to see what works actually represents a serious attempt to find political solutions that can scale to 21st century problems. The study of memes, while appearing silly on the surface, is actually a deep investigation into how humans construct ideological frameworks.
Anti-Establishment Sentiment Transcends Left-Right Divisions
One of the most significant political developments is the rise of what Citarella calls "horseshoe" politics - people who are open to counter-narratives from either right or left as long as they challenge the establishment consensus. (57:58) He points to Breaking Points as an example of this crossover audience that "should not exist" but represents a top 10 politics podcast. The unifying factor isn't ideology but rejection of the neoliberal status quo that has overseen "forty years of downward mobility for Americans."
Irony Can Become Sincerity Through "Irony Poisoning"
Citarella identifies a dangerous phenomenon where people initially post extreme content as jokes, then gradually work their way up to genuinely believing it. (40:30) This "irony poisoning" process allows people to test controversial ideas in a supposedly safe space of humor, but over time these "jokes" can become real political positions. Understanding this progression is crucial for recognizing how online radicalization actually occurs in practice.
The Left's Identity Politics Strategy Is Electorally Self-Defeating
Through extensive interviews with young men across the political spectrum, Citarella observed how academic-coded identity politics rhetoric actively drives away potential coalition members. (82:58) He argues that the left needs to return to material concerns like trade unionism and wages rather than what he calls "militant activist rhetoric" that scares people away from joining organizations. Building winning coalitions requires persuasion, not purity tests that continuously shrink the movement.
Statistics & Facts
- Union density in the US reached a historic high of 31% in the 1970s but has fallen to just 11% today, marking a dramatic decline in worker organization power. (81:52)
- Breaking Points, which features crossover left-right commentary, has become a top 10 politics podcast despite representing an audience that theoretically "should not exist." (58:37)
- The number one reason for bankruptcy in America is medical bills, highlighting the human cost of the current healthcare system. (95:32)
