How to make smarter changes, with cognitive scientist Maya Shankar
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this enlightening episode of Masters of Scale, cognitive scientist Maya Shankar shares her remarkable journey from aspiring concert violinist to behavioral scientist in the Obama White House, and finally to her current role as senior director of behavioral economics at Google. (03:44) When a career-ending injury forced her to abandon her violin dreams at age 15, Maya learned valuable lessons about resilience and identity that would shape her approach to helping others navigate change. (10:00) She discusses how she built the first behavioral science team in the White House from scratch, using grassroots coalition-building and creative problem-solving to overcome bureaucratic barriers. The conversation explores practical strategies from her new book "The Other Side of Change," including how to future-proof your identity, navigate career transitions, and harness the power of small wins and moral elevation during difficult transformations.
- Main themes: Building resilience through identity diversification, entrepreneurship within large organizations, and using behavioral science insights to create meaningful change in both personal and professional contexts.
Speakers
Maya Shankar
Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist, author, and podcast host who has made a career of applying behavioral economics insights to create meaningful change. She served as a senior policy advisor for social and behavioral sciences in the Obama White House, where she built the first dedicated behavioral science team from scratch. (13:00) Currently, she is the senior director of behavioral economics at Google and hosts the award-winning podcast "A Slight Change of Plans." Her new book "The Other Side of Change" combines compelling human stories with actionable behavioral science research.
Jeff Berman
Jeff Berman is the host of Masters of Scale, bringing his expertise in interviewing high-achieving professionals and extracting actionable insights for ambitious listeners. He creates engaging conversations that help professionals navigate complex challenges and achieve mastery in their fields.
Key Takeaways
Define Yourself by Your "Why," Not Just Your "What"
When Maya lost her violin career at age 15, she discovered that her true passion wasn't the instrument itself, but the human connection it facilitated. (04:57) She learned to future-proof her identity by focusing on the deeper motivations behind her choices rather than just the activities themselves. This insight helped her transition from music to cognitive science, as both fields allowed her to explore human connection and understanding. By identifying the core values that drive you—whether it's creativity, problem-solving, or helping others—you create a more resilient foundation that can withstand unexpected changes. When external circumstances shift, your internal compass remains intact, making transitions feel less like losses and more like redirections toward the same fundamental goals.
Start Small to Build Sustainable Change
Maya emphasizes the power of minimal viable progress through the example of Duane, who became a poet by writing just one poem per day while in prison. (24:56) The key insight is that "the difference between writing zero minutes a day and writing one minute a day is that in the one minute world, you're a writer." This approach works because it creates identity priming—when you consistently take small actions aligned with your desired identity, you begin to see yourself differently. Small wins also help overcome the "middle problem" in goal pursuit, where motivation naturally dips. (26:15) By breaking large goals into mini-milestones, you create more frequent endpoints and beginnings, maintaining momentum through what would otherwise be discouraging middle periods.
Align Incentives to Build Coalitions
When Maya entered the White House without a mandate or budget, she succeeded by understanding what her potential collaborators actually wanted to achieve. (16:39) Rather than positioning behavioral science as a separate initiative, she framed it as a tool to help agencies reach their existing goals more effectively. She would ask: "What are your goals for this year? As a behavioral scientist, I'm going to help you get to that goal using tools that represent our best understanding of human behavior." (17:12) This approach transformed potential resistance into collaboration because she made it clear that working with her would enhance rather than complicate their efforts. The lesson applies broadly: when trying to implement change in any organization, start by understanding stakeholders' existing priorities and position your ideas as accelerators rather than alternatives.
Use Self-Affirmation During Crisis
After experiencing pregnancy loss, Maya's husband guided her through an impromptu self-affirmation exercise that proved transformative. (29:57) Despite her initial resistance ("I do not want to do this right now"), listing things she was grateful for—her role as an aunt, her work hosting a podcast, her relationships—helped her realize how "single mindedly focused" she had become on one goal. (30:54) The exercise didn't eliminate her sadness but made her feel "slightly more whole and intact." Self-affirmation works by reminding you of identities and values that aren't threatened by your current crisis, providing psychological stability when one area of life feels chaotic. The key is identifying aspects of your life that give you meaning but remain intact despite your current challenge.
Harness Moral Elevation to Expand Possibilities
Maya describes "moral elevation" as the warm feeling we get when witnessing others' moral beauty—their kindness, courage, or resilience. (33:28) This experience literally changes our brains by expanding our sense of what's possible for ourselves. (33:46) When we see people "behaving in ways that defy our understanding of what humans are capable of," it "cracks open our imagination" about our own potential. Duane's transformation from prisoner to poet began when he witnessed Bilal's unexpected kindness and discipline in prison, which challenged his assumptions about who he could become. (34:57) During difficult transitions, actively seeking examples of moral beauty—whether through books, documentaries, or real-life observation—can help overcome feelings of being stuck and open your mind to new possibilities for your own future.
Statistics & Facts
- When the government changed the school lunch program from opt-in to opt-out, 12.5 million kids were now eating lunch at school every day who previously weren't. (11:18) This dramatic increase came simply from leveraging the power of default options, demonstrating how small behavioral design changes can create massive social impact.
- The Department of Veterans Affairs saw a 9% increase in veterans accessing employment and educational benefits simply by changing one word in their email communications—from telling veterans they were "eligible" to reminding them they had "earned" the benefits through their service. (14:51) This change tapped into the endowment effect, showing how psychological ownership language can significantly improve program uptake.
- Maya started studying at Juilliard when she was nine years old and became a private student of renowned violinist Itzhak Perlman as a teenager, highlighting the level of dedication and talent she had invested in her original career path before her injury at age 15. (03:17)
