36: C. Thi Nguyen - Measurement, Meaning, and Play
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this fascinating conversation, C. Thi Nguyen explores how scoring systems in games create meaningful agency and playfulness, while the same systems in real life lead to what he calls "value capture" - the flattening of rich, complex values into simplified metrics. (26:30) Nguyen argues that we live in an increasingly gamified yet decreasingly playful world, where metrics tell us what to desire but constrain rather than liberate us. The discussion spans from personal agency and values exploration to societal-level concerns about how our obsession with quantification strips meaning from human experience.
- Main themes: The paradox of scoring systems (liberating in games, constraining in life), value capture versus authentic value exploration, the trade-offs between accessibility and expertise, and why technology is never value-neutral.
Speakers
C. Thi Nguyen
C. Thi Nguyen is a professor of philosophy at the University of Utah who studies values, games, agency, art, aesthetics, and data. His new book "The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game" explores how metrics flatten our values and sap meaning from our lives. He's also the author of "Games: Agency as Art," which examines how game designers work in the medium of agency, sculpting players' abilities, goals, and obstacles to create harmonious action.
Jackson Dahl
Jackson Dahl is the host of Dialectic, a podcast focused on exploring ideas that turn into action, craft, and soul. He conducts in-depth conversations with thinkers and practitioners across various domains, with a particular interest in how technology intersects with human values and meaning-making.
Key Takeaways
Embrace Agential Fluidity Through Games
Games allow us to explore different forms of agency by temporarily adopting simplified goal structures that focus our attention and refine our capacities. (26:30) As Nguyen explains, games work in the "medium of agency" - they shape what we can do, what we're trying to achieve, and what obstacles we face. This creates a safe space to experiment with different ways of being and acting. Unlike real-world roles that can trap us, games offer temporary agency that we can enter and exit playfully, allowing us to discover new aspects of ourselves and develop different skills without permanent commitment.
Recognize Value Capture and Fight It
Value capture occurs when rich, complex values get replaced by simplified metrics that initially seem to measure what matters. (23:36) Nguyen describes how someone might start a podcast to explore ideas but gradually become obsessed with subscriber counts, losing sight of their original purpose. The danger isn't just external pressure - it's when we enthusiastically embrace the simplified metric because it's easier to optimize for than our original, messier values. Combat this by regularly returning to your core motivations and questioning whether your current measures truly serve your deeper purposes.
Cultivate Perception Over Recognition
Recognition categorizes something and stops looking, while perception uses categories as starting points for deeper exploration. (49:46) When we recognize someone as "just a business person" or "just a gen-zer," we stop seeing their unique qualities. Perception means continuing to notice details, surprises, and complexities even after initial categorization. This skill is essential for avoiding the trap of oversimplified thinking that metrics encourage. Practice by deliberately looking beyond first impressions and remaining curious about people and situations even after you think you understand them.
Choose Process Over Outcome Optimization
In games, we adopt goals to get the struggle we want, not because we actually care about winning. (58:46) Nguyen distinguishes between "achievement play" (playing to win) and "striving play" (playing for the quality of the process). This principle applies beyond games: the value often lies in the activity itself rather than its measurable outcomes. Instead of optimizing purely for results, consider whether you're engaging in activities that are intrinsically rewarding and help you develop as a person, even if they don't maximize external metrics.
Maintain Value Pluralism and Context Sensitivity
Good values are tailored to your specific context, personality, and situation rather than being universal principles. (36:28) Nguyen uses Jane Jacobs' example of how friendliness works in rural areas but becomes problematic in dense urban environments. Values need to fit your circumstances, and what works for one person or situation may be harmful in another. Develop the ability to hold multiple values in tension and adjust your priorities based on context rather than rigidly following universal rules or metrics.
Statistics & Facts
- Nguyen mentions that BMI was originally designed as a population-level epidemiological measure, not for individual health assessment, yet it became widely adopted as a personal health metric despite its limitations for individual cases. (79:30)
- The book references how the ICD-10 medical classification system has about 10 different codes for urban falls (balcony, stairs, escalator, bed, etc.) but only two codes for rural falls: "fall from cliff" and "fall other," revealing the urban bias in medical data collection. (123:43)
- Porter's historical research shows that mechanical/algorithmic rules were developed about 150 years before computing machines as a way to "cheapen labor" by making expertise unnecessary and workers fungible. (91:16)
