ReThinking: The George Washington story you haven’t heard with Ken Burns (Part 1)
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this episode of "Rethinking," Adam Grant interviews legendary documentary filmmaker Ken Burns about his latest work on the American Revolution. (02:19) Burns challenges our sanitized understanding of the founding fathers, particularly George Washington, revealing the complex contradictions that make these historical figures more human and ultimately more heroic. The conversation explores how embracing the moral complexity of our heroes—rather than demanding perfection—leads to richer storytelling and deeper understanding. (02:56) Burns emphasizes that origin stories serve a therapeutic function, helping us construct collective narratives about ourselves while honoring the nuanced reality of history. The discussion delves into Washington's reluctant leadership, his ability to inspire loyalty despite significant military mistakes, and the profound moral contradictions of founding a nation on liberty while owning enslaved people.
- Main theme: The power of complex, contradictory historical narratives that reveal the full humanity of our founding fathers rather than sanitized hero worship
Speakers
Adam Grant
Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist at Wharton and host of the TED podcast "Rethinking." He's a bestselling author known for exploring the science of what makes us tick and challenging conventional thinking about leadership, motivation, and human behavior.
Ken Burns
Ken Burns is America's most acclaimed documentary filmmaker, having created groundbreaking films on the Civil War, Baseball, Mark Twain, Jackie Robinson, and the American Buffalo over nearly fifty years. His latest work examines the American Revolution, continuing his mission to excavate the complex stories that define American identity and challenge our simplified understanding of history.
Key Takeaways
Embrace the "It's Complicated" Mindset
Burns keeps a neon sign reading "it's complicated" in his editing room, serving as a constant reminder that good storytelling requires embracing contradictory information even when it makes scenes "less good." (05:37) This principle extends beyond filmmaking to leadership and life decisions. Rather than seeking simple narratives or clear-cut heroes and villains, we must develop comfort with nuance and contradiction. This approach leads to richer understanding and better decision-making, whether in historical analysis, business strategy, or personal relationships.
Look for Stories Where "One Plus One Equals Three"
Unlike engineering where one plus one must equal two, stories offer the possibility for the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts. (04:14) Burns seeks narratives that create this mysterious "third" element—the transformative power that emerges when elements combine in unexpected ways. This concept applies to building teams, creating partnerships, or developing innovative solutions where synergy creates outcomes beyond what individual contributions could achieve alone.
True Leadership Often Comes from Reluctance, Not Ambition
Washington's hesitancy to accept leadership roles paradoxically made him more effective, as it fostered humility and servant leadership. (15:48) Research shows leaders who arrive at power with some reluctance tend to empower others rather than hoarding authority. This principle suggests that the best leaders often don't actively seek power but accept it as a responsibility to serve others, leading to more collaborative and effective leadership styles.
Choose Talent Over Ego in Building Teams
Washington consistently selected subordinates who were better generals than him—like Benedict Arnold, Nathaniel Greene, and Daniel Morgan—without fear of being overshadowed. (22:57) This demonstrates the difference between narcissistic leaders who feel threatened by talent and great leaders who actively cultivate it. The most effective approach is growing talent around you, making everyone smarter rather than trying to be the smartest person in the room.
Use Origin Stories as Therapeutic Tools for Growth
Burns argues that examining our origin stories—whether personal or collective—provides therapeutic advantages by helping us understand where we've been, where we are, and where we might go. (16:58) Just as therapists explore childhood and family history to understand present behavior, examining foundational narratives helps reconstruct collective identity. This applies to organizations studying their founding principles, individuals reflecting on formative experiences, or teams understanding their shared history to navigate current challenges.
Statistics & Facts
- Out of approximately 3 million people in America in 1775, about 500,000 were enslaved or freed blacks who were part of the community dynamic. (13:07) This statistic, provided by Burns, highlights the significant role enslaved people played in the founding of America while being excluded from the liberty the revolution promised.
- The American Revolution lasted six and a half bloody years, not the simplified version of Lexington and Concord to Yorktown that many Americans believe. (11:46) Burns emphasizes this to show the true scope and cost of the revolutionary struggle.
- Washington was arguably the richest person in America at the time of the revolution, yet he was willing to risk his life, fortune, and sacred honor for the cause. (10:40) This fact underscores the remarkable nature of his sacrifice and leadership.
