#483 – Julia Shaw: Criminal Psychology of Murder, Serial Killers, Memory & Sex
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
In this fascinating conversation with criminal psychologist Julia Shaw, we explore the dark side of human nature through a scientific lens. Shaw, author of books on evil, false memories, bisexuality, and environmental crime, challenges our fundamental assumptions about morality, memory, and human behavior. (00:26)
- Core themes include the continuum of dark personality traits, the malleability of human memory, the psychology of environmental crime, and the importance of empathy in understanding those we label as "evil"
Speakers
Julia Shaw
Julia Shaw is a criminal psychologist and author who has written extensively on human nature's darker aspects. She has authored several influential books including "Evil: The Science Behind Humanity's Dark Side," "The Memory Illusion," "Bi: The Hidden Culture, History and Science of Bisexuality," and "Green Crime." Shaw works as an expert witness in criminal cases and has trained police, lawyers, and military personnel on memory interviewing techniques.
Lex Fridman
Lex Fridman is a researcher and podcast host known for conducting in-depth conversations with experts across various fields. His analytical approach and willingness to explore complex topics makes him an ideal interviewer for examining the nuances of human psychology and behavior.
Key Takeaways
Evil Exists on a Continuum, Not as Binary Categories
Shaw argues that traits like psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, and Machiavellianism exist on scales rather than as binary on/off switches. (00:43) Everyone scores somewhere on these dark tetrad traits, with those scoring high across multiple dimensions being more likely to cause harm. This perspective dismantles the artificial differentiation between "good" and "evil" people, recognizing that we all have the capacity for both beneficial and harmful behaviors depending on circumstances and environment.
Memory is Fundamentally Unreliable and Easily Manipulated
Shaw's groundbreaking research demonstrates that 70% of participants can be convinced they committed crimes that never happened through leading interview techniques. (110:53) Our autobiographical memories are essentially "false" to varying degrees - not complete fabrications, but reconstructions that change each time we recall them. This has profound implications for criminal justice, relationships, and how we understand our own past experiences.
Social Pressure Creates Ordinary Monsters
Through examples from war crimes to corporate fraud, Shaw illustrates how normal people become capable of atrocities through social conformity and deindividuation. (13:33) The key factors include dehumanizing the "other," losing individual identity within groups, and gradual normalization of harmful behavior. Understanding these mechanisms is crucial for recognizing when we might be susceptible to similar pressures.
Empathy for "Evil" People is Essential for Prevention
Rather than labeling perpetrators as fundamentally different from us, Shaw advocates for "evil empathy" - understanding the psychological and social factors that lead to harmful behavior. (14:22) This approach isn't about forgiveness or minimizing harm, but about developing more effective prevention strategies. By studying the pathways to harmful behavior, we can better intervene before crimes occur and create systems that reduce rather than increase the likelihood of violence.
Environmental Crime Requires Different Psychological Understanding
Shaw's latest research on environmental criminals reveals that unlike typical violent crime (often committed by vulnerable individuals making bad decisions), environmental crimes are frequently perpetrated by highly intelligent people in corporate settings. (150:17) These crimes involve complex organizational psychology, conformity pressure, and rationalization at scale. Fighting environmental crime requires understanding both individual psychology and systemic factors that enable large-scale deception and harm.
Statistics & Facts
- Shaw's research found that 70% of participants could be convinced they had committed crimes that never happened, demonstrating the malleability of human memory through leading interview techniques. (110:53)
- Recidivism rates for homicide are only 1-3%, making murder one of the crimes with the lowest likelihood of repetition, which challenges common assumptions about how we should structure criminal justice responses. (47:36)
- Research on murder fantasies shows that approximately 70% of men and over 50% of women have fantasized about killing someone, indicating these thoughts are much more common than typically acknowledged. (37:18)
