20th Anniversary celebration with the most memorable guests: Jason Reynolds, Marina Abramović, Chris Ware, Richard Saul Wurman, Rick Rubin, and Roxane Gay
Timestamps are as accurate as they can be but may be slightly off. We encourage you to listen to the full context.
Podcast Summary
This special 20th anniversary episode of Design Matters features host Debbie Millman revisiting excerpts from her most memorable interviews over two decades. (02:36) First launched in February 2005, the podcast has grown from featuring designer friends to encompassing over 700 interviews with creative luminaries across diverse fields. (04:24) Rather than choosing favorites, Millman shares segments from interviews that helped shape her interviewing approach and continue to evolve in meaning over time.
- Main Theme: A retrospective celebration showcasing transformative conversations with Jason Reynolds, Marina Abramović, Chris Ware, Richard Saul Wurman, Rick Rubin, and Roxane Gay that demonstrate the power of authentic dialogue and vulnerability in creative interviews.
Speakers
Debbie Millman
Debbie Millman is the host of Design Matters, one of the world's first podcasts and the first podcast about design. (03:02) She launched the show in 2005 from the Empire State Building and has since conducted over 700 interviews with creative professionals. She teaches at the School of Visual Arts in New York City as part of the masters in branding program, the first and longest running branding program in the world.
Jason Reynolds
Jason Reynolds is a MacArthur Fellow and acclaimed author who was interviewed by Millman in 2022. (05:21) He is known for his young adult literature and has become one of the most influential voices in contemporary children's and teen literature, focusing on stories that resonate with diverse audiences.
Marina Abramović
Marina Abramović is a legendary performance artist who joined Design Matters in 2017. (17:21) She is renowned for her groundbreaking performance art pieces that explore the limits of the body, mind, and viewer participation, including her famous works "Rhythm 0" and "The Artist is Present."
Chris Ware
Chris Ware is an illustrator and graphic novelist who appeared on the show in 2012 to discuss his award-winning graphic novel "Building Stories." (29:30) He is considered one of the most innovative voices in contemporary graphic literature, known for his intricate storytelling and unique visual style.
Richard Saul Wurman
Richard Saul Wurman is a designer by training who has authored over 90 books and founded the TED conference. (30:39) He joined Millman for what she describes as her most contentious interview in 2017, demonstrating his reputation for provocative and challenging conversations.
Rick Rubin
Rick Rubin is a record producer who has won nine Grammy Awards and worked with artists from Jay-Z to Johnny Cash. (37:57) He was interviewed in 2023 shortly after publishing "The Creative Act," which spent over 32 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. He founded Def Jam Records from his NYU dorm room.
Roxane Gay
Roxane Gay is Debbie Millman's wife and acclaimed author who joined her for a live Design Matters episode at the On Air Fest in 2019. (49:18) She is known for her powerful memoirs and fiction, including "Hunger" and "Difficult Women," and is a prominent voice in contemporary feminist literature.
Key Takeaways
The Power of Early Affirmations in Shaping Identity
Jason Reynolds reveals how his mother's nightly ritual of saying "I can do anything" from age two fundamentally shaped his fearless approach to life and career. (06:02) As Reynolds explains, "language has a way of living in the body" and "fossilizing and attaching itself to the identity." This practice gave him the confidence to attempt anything without fear because the mantra became "tethered to my vertebrae in a different way." The key insight is that consistent positive messaging in formative years can create an unshakeable foundation of self-belief that persists through adult challenges and insecurities.
Normalizing Mental Health Through Family Integration
Reynolds' father, a psychiatrist, regularly invited his patients to family barbecues and dinners, exposing young Jason to people with various mental health conditions. (09:09) This unconventional approach taught Reynolds that "people's brains all work differently" and that "no one is any better or any worse than anyone else." The strategy worked because it humanized mental health struggles and removed stigma through normalization. This approach can be applied by creating inclusive environments where differences are treated as natural variations rather than abnormalities.
Vulnerability as Artistic Currency
Marina Abramović's "Rhythm 0" performance demonstrates the profound impact of complete vulnerability in art. (19:19) She placed 72 objects including a gun with one bullet on a table and invited the audience to do anything to her for six hours. The experience taught her that "the public can kill you" but also that "you can give the tools to the public to lift the spirit." Her gray hair appeared overnight from the trauma, yet she learned a crucial lesson about audience psychology that informed her work for decades. This shows how extreme vulnerability, while dangerous, can yield transformative artistic and personal insights.
Embracing Productive Discomfort
Richard Saul Wurman's philosophy centers on deliberately seeking discomfort as a catalyst for growth and creativity. (32:55) He states, "I like terror. I like the edge of things. It's the edge that keeps me awake... Comfort is not your friend." Wurman explains that discomfort means "I can't figure it out yet," which drives continued learning and discovery. This approach can be practically applied by actively seeking challenging projects, uncomfortable conversations, and situations that push beyond current capabilities, as these moments of not knowing create opportunities for breakthrough thinking.
Creating Art as Fan Service
Rick Rubin's entry into hip-hop production came from his desire to document what he loved as a fan rather than trying to capitalize on a trend. (43:03) He explains, "The only reason I did it was as a fan wanting to be serviced as a fan, and I wasn't being serviced. So I made it because I wanted it to exist." This approach led to authentic representation of hip-hop culture, focusing on the DJ as the star and the art of montage. The principle suggests that the most impactful creative work often comes from creating what you personally want to see in the world, rather than trying to please a market or follow trends.
Statistics & Facts
- Design Matters has produced over 700 episodes since launching on February 4, 2005, making it one of the world's first podcasts and the first podcast about design. (03:02) This statistic demonstrates the longevity and consistency of the show over nearly two decades.
- Rick Rubin mentioned that the Flipper album, which influenced many punk musicians including Kurt Cobain, sold only 10,000 copies despite its significant cultural impact. (43:48) This illustrates how niche audiences can create profound artistic influence that far exceeds commercial metrics.
- Rick Rubin's book "The Creative Act" has been on the New York Times bestseller list for over 32 weeks as of the interview date. (38:17) This demonstrates the sustained commercial success of his insights into the creative process.
